Curse

lyra_song · Apr 18, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Divine favor works under 3 conditions:

1) spells
2) effects only 1 (meaning heal party does not have a party wide bonus)
3) monk spells only

Necromancer SR works for ALL deaths.
You will always have deaths since the point of PvE is to KILL ENEMIES.

SR doesnt care what spells or skills or stances or whatever you use that energy on.

Deaths trigger on ALL Necromancers in the area. Its not divided up. Its not weakened by distance, etc.

Before elemental attunement was nerfed, a Necro COULD have made a better elementalist (although the mesmer was better because of fast cast, since dual attunement was enough to regain energy for Flareway, and didn't need to resort to SR).
==============

Seut: The customer is not always right.

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

For crying out loud. Do we need yet another thread turned into an SR complaint thread?

Feel free to leave? Don't let the figurative door hit ya?

What you call complaining, others call expressing their opinion. That is the point of these forums. Is it really a surprise that a thread about soul reaping will have posts about soul reaping? There are hundreds of topics in these forums, 2 of which are about soul reaping. If you have no desire to hear people's opinions, then, well, leave? Nobody is forcing you here. If people are unhappy about the change, then yes, they will express it, and seeing how the other thread is the second most replied to thread in the riverside inn, beaten only by GW2 info, it looks like quite a lot of people are unhappy. Remember all those threads about complaining over 6 man HA? When people are unhappy, they express their concerns, and fixes are made.

boko · Apr 18, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

How the classes attack (and why mesmers are the least appreciated...):

Warriors: Through brute force and strength of muscle you are beaten into a pulp.
Elementalists: The very forces of nature are brought down upon you.
Rangers: Rain death from afar.
Necromancers: Tap the dark forces and eat you from within.
Monks: Summon the power of the gods to smite you down.
Assassins: As fast as they arrive, they are gone. So are you.
Dervishes: Whirling scythes and arcane might quickly dispatch foe upon foe.
Ritualists: Summon the powers of the other side to do their bidding.
Paragons: Spears at range tear you apart.
Mesmers: Sip their latte while you kill yourself for them.

LOL! Nice summary!

The Ernada · Apr 18, 2007, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Feel free to leave? Don't let the figurative door hit ya?

What you call complaining, others call expressing their opinion. That is the point of these forums. Is it really a surprise that a thread about soul reaping will have posts about soul reaping? There are hundreds of topics in these forums, 2 of which are about soul reaping. If you have no desire to hear people's opinions, then, well, leave? Nobody is forcing you here. If people are unhappy about the change, then yes, they will express it, and seeing how the other thread is the second most replied to thread in the riverside inn, beaten only by GW2 info, it looks like quite a lot of people are unhappy. Remember all those threads about complaining over 6 man HA? When people are unhappy, they express their concerns, and fixes are made.

Aww hit a sore spot did I? There's a difference between expressing your opinion with some useful discussion and the typical complaints that I see all the time.

"OMG SR has been around for 2 years why nerf now!? ANET sux and doesnt know what they're doing!!!" type statements have no use to anyone at all. (hint: look at the post that I was replying to above my previous post)

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Divine favor works under 3 conditions:

1) spells
2) effects only 1 (meaning heal party does not have a party wide bonus)
3) monk spells only

Necromancer SR works for ALL deaths.
You will always have deaths since the point of PvE is to KILL ENEMIES.

SR doesnt care what spells or skills or stances or whatever you use that energy on.

Deaths trigger on ALL Necromancers in the area. Its not divided up. Its not weakened by distance, etc.

Before elemental attunement was nerfed, a Necro COULD have made a better elementalist (although the mesmer was better because of fast cast, since dual attunement was enough to regain energy for Flareway, and didn't need to resort to SR).
==============

Seut: The customer is not always right.

1. Monks have mostly spells
2. Which is why my example was for Orison of Healing, a spell that effects 1 person.
3. Yup.

Isn't the point of both PvE and PvP to kill things?

Why would a monk use things other than monk spells? Signet heavy build or something? Let's be realistic here, instead of throwing a bunch of "if my monk used a sword and firestorm, divine favor wouldn't help!" comments.

Neither is my Warrior or Monk examples. Is it really surprising that an effect has an effect on you? Er..... yeah.

Keyword: Before. And as you say yourself, Mesmers were superior in that condition anyway.

The customer is not always right. However, that does not mean the company always is, and that does not mean that any change that upsets customers should be simply disregarded. Without the customers, there would not be a Guild Wars and these people wouldn't be bringing home the bacon. It tends to be a good idea to listen to the customers, but hey, you can run your business however you want I suppose.

noocoo · Apr 18, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Thanks for sharing the info

About the Soul reaping issue, Anet you guys spent almost two years to know that it is overpowered, and what were you doing in the past two years? two years....wow...

About the mesmer issue, we all know mesmer need more skill to play, and why does a dev update tell us this thing that everyone already knew that.
You still haven't tell us how you will improve the mesmer in pve yet, and I could say that you still don't know how to do, right?

Geez

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Aww hit a sore spot did I? There's a difference between expressing your opinion with some useful discussion and the typical complaints that I see all the time.

"OMG SR has been around for 2 years why nerf now!? ANET sux and doesnt know what they're doing!!!" type statements have no use to anyone at all.

Looks like somebody has a case of the monday's

I'm going to be mature and disregard your post, as statements like that have no use to anyone at all, as opposed to ruining the topic- ironically, what you think you are preventing with your posts.

seut · Apr 18, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Seut: The customer is not always right.

That might be true, but in german there is a saying: the customer is king.
If they don't apply a reasonable solution to this SR mess, they've lost a long time customer (i play since e34e).

cthulhu reborn · Apr 18, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Before I make my point some basics.
-I play PvE only
-I have 12 characters of which 3 are necro's
-I have been playing for about 2 years.

Now, I was not happy initially with the nerf because necro was my fave and I didn't like them messing with it.

HOWEVER, I realised that what really irked me was NOT the loss of energy return which was more or less endless, BUT the fact that I couldn't plan my energy return as I can with other classes and skills.

So as a PvE'er I am saying I do not need SR to go back to what it was but to a system where I know exactly when my energy return is gonna be there during combat situations.

I am very glad that Anet has picked this up and are willing to do something about this aspect of the change and for the record, I do not need SS to cost 10 energy, it's an exploit waiting to happen. Also the other cost reductions are not needed for me. I just need to know what my energy is doing without the eggtimer.

Thanks much!

explodemyheart · Apr 18, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Feel free to leave? Don't let the figurative door hit ya?

What you call complaining, others call expressing their opinion. That is the point of these forums. Is it really a surprise that a thread about soul reaping will have posts about soul reaping? There are hundreds of topics in these forums, 2 of which are about soul reaping. If you have no desire to hear people's opinions, then, well, leave? Nobody is forcing you here. If people are unhappy about the change, then yes, they will express it, and seeing how the other thread is the second most replied to thread in the riverside inn, beaten only by GW2 info, it looks like quite a lot of people are unhappy. Remember all those threads about complaining over 6 man HA? When people are unhappy, they express their concerns, and fixes are made.

You might have a point if, at this point, it were necessary to express concern. Obviously the existence of this thread is proof enough that Anet knows that their current solution was not the best one, as they're exploring other avenues.

You said yourself that the other SR thread is the second most replied thread currently active in riverside inn. That, coupled with this obvious acknowledgement of the issue, I'd say that "concern" is no longer needed. At least not until they do make a change, at which point there will be more "concern", of course. Feel free to continue to get worked up over the issue, though, of course.

lyra_song · Apr 18, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Why would a monk use things other than monk spells? Signet heavy build or something? Let's be realistic here, instead of throwing a bunch of "if my monk used a sword and firestorm, divine favor wouldn't help!" comments.

Neither is my Warrior or Monk examples. Is it really surprising that an effect has an effect on you? Er..... yeah.

-.-

The pre-nerf SR Necromancer could spam high energy Monk skills better than a primary monk can because they regain energy at a much much faster rate.

I never put 10 energy spells on my Monk, only 5. My necro gets Heal party, heal area and healing breeze.

SR is not limited to Necro only skills. The necro can choose to Hex, MM or Heal.

Divine favor helps a monk with only 1 purpose, to heal damage.

Which is the better primary attribute?

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

You might have a point if, at this point, it were necessary to express concern. Obviously the existence of this thread is proof enough that Anet knows that their current solution was not the best one, as they're exploring other avenues.

You said yourself that the other SR thread is the second most replied thread currently active in riverside inn. That, coupled with this obvious acknowledgement of the issue, I'd say that "concern" is no longer needed. At least not until they do make a change, at which point there will be more "concern", of course. Feel free to continue to get worked up over the issue, though, of course.

Who's getting worked up?

The concern now is about her statement. After all, if everybody just stops talking, won't Anet get the impression that people no longer have a desire to see a fix to soul reaping? From what many people are getting from Gaile's post, Anet isn't quite sure how to tackle the soul reaping issue. Who knows, maybe the bright idea they jump on will be suggested by a "complainer"?

The Ernada · Apr 18, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

HOWEVER, I realised that what really irked me was NOT the loss of energy return which was more or less endless, BUT the fact that I couldn't plan my energy return as I can with other classes and skills.

I've always thought that SR in general was a bad mechanic because it's simply out of your control most of the time and the fact that it's a passive attribute. All the other primary attributes lets you have control over it with skill usage, but SR you literally don't do anything and you can't plan energy returns. So either it sucks or it's overpowered.

But they sort of helped with the problem of planning energy returns with skills like Signet of Lost Souls. And things die in PVE often and consistantly enough for the current SR to still be very viable despite what naysayers are saying.

And to Series, I dont know why you were getting all worked up for anyway. My complainer statement wasnt even directed at you. But maybe it should since you're just fighting with everyone now.

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

-.-

The pre-nerf SR Necromancer could spam high energy Monk skills better than a primary monk can because they regain energy at a much much faster rate.

SR is not limited to Necro only skills. The necro can choose to Hex, MM or Heal.

Divine favor helps a monk with only 1 purpose, to heal damage.

Which is the better primary attribute?

-.- (cutesy emotes apparently help strengthen your point)

Do you really think things are black and white as you see it? Who said a primary attribute has to be "better"? As a monk, Divine Favor is better. As a Necro, SR is better. That isn't a very difficult concept to grasp, as the primary attributes were made with the profession in mind.

As you say, the SR is not limited to Necro only skills. The massive energy Monks save by getting more potent spells is not limited to be spent on only monk skills. For example, cast 2 orisons of healing with divine favor and you can say that you save 5 energy, as without the primary, you would have had to spend an extra 5 energy to bring the ally up the same amount of health. You can use that 5 energy on any spell or skill in the game, just as you can use death energy on any spell in the game.

lyra_song · Apr 18, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

The concern now is about her statement. After all, if everybody just stops talking, won't Anet get the impression that people no longer have a desire to see a fix to soul reaping? From what many people are getting from Gaile's post, Anet isn't quite sure how to tackle the soul reaping issue. Who knows, maybe the bright idea they jump on will be suggested by a "complainer"?

How can someone contribute to any sort of part of solution to the problem if they refuse to acknowledge the problem?

explodemyheart · Apr 18, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Who's getting worked up?

I'd say it's you and several people in this thread, what with suggesting that necromancers should be shelved and the like. I'm quite amused, truth be told.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

The concern now is about her statement. After all, if everybody just stops talking, won't Anet get the impression that people no longer have a desire to see a fix to soul reaping? From what many people are getting from Gaile's post, Anet isn't quite sure how to tackle the soul reaping issue. Who knows, maybe the bright idea they jump on will be suggested by a "complainer"?

Your logic is flawless. Really. Except no...

I'd say that a comment along the lines of, "Thank you for realizing your mistakes and trying to come up with a more viable solution, Anet. I very much look forward to it!" still shows that you obviously had concern for the issue, yet is far more constructive than "How come monks get free heals?

Obviously if divine favor is good for monk, soul reaping was good for necros!!!"

If anybody has any new, brilliant ideas to fix the problem, they're free to share them. I, however, have not seen any new viable ideas for several days. There is a distinct difference between constructive comments and suggestions and outright complaining and producing ridiculous arguments. It's not my fault you can't tell the difference.

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And to Series, I dont know why you were getting all worked up for anyway. My complainer statement wasnt even directed at you. But maybe it should since you're just fighting with everyone now.

Why do you say I'm worked up? Because I shot down your "Please not more complaining" post and you feel embarrassed or something? Loosen up, it's a forum. "Fighting with everyone"? Yeah, I'm debating about soul reaping. Once again, welcome to a forum, where people express their opinions.

And of course your complainer statement wasn't directed at me. But who cares? I'm sure you've replied to posts that haven't said "To: The Ernada" as the first sentance

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How can someone contribute to any sort of part of solution to the problem if they refuse to acknowledge the problem?

Lyra, judging by your actions in the soul reaping thread I just skimmed through, it looks safe to say that you are just doin' a little trolling. I think I'm gonna ignore you now, as a flame war would ruin this topic.

lyra_song · Apr 18, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

As you say, the SR is not limited to Necro only skills. The massive energy Monks save by getting more potent spells is not limited to be spent on only monk skills. For example, cast 2 orisons of healing with divine favor and you can say that you save 5 energy, as without the primary, you would have had to spend an extra 5 energy to bring the ally up the same amount of health. You can use that 5 energy on any spell or skill in the game, just as you can use death energy on any spell in the game.

But in order to GAIN that 5 energy you have to have monk skills to use to begin with.

Soul Reaping requires no skills in your skill bar, because it is a passive attribute, it gives the advantage of more space for skills.

Quote:

Lyra, judging by your actions in the soul reaping thread I just skimmed through, it looks safe to say that you are just doin' a little trolling. I think I'm gonna ignore you now, as a flame war would ruin this topic.

I'm blunt and I dont care about your feelings. But im not "trolling". Why dont you "skim" over more of my posts?

Its a legitimate question with a legitimate answer.

If you dont acknowledge that there is a problem, you cannot solve it.

If your car has a flat tire, and you refuse to acknowledge that there is a flat tire, how can you possibly contribute to a discussion about how to fix said flat tire.

------------------
Soul Reaping has a problem.

Pre-nerf: It was too strong

Post-nerf: Now its just clunky and doesnt address the issues of the nerf.

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

I'd say it's you and several people in this thread, what with suggesting that necromancers should be shelved and the like. I'm quite amused, truth be told.

Who's more worked up- the people who say that they don't like necromancers or the people who come here bashing like the genius below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

Your logic is flawless. Really. Except no...

I'd say that a comment along the lines of, "Thank you for realizing your mistakes and trying to come up with a more viable solution, Anet. I very much look forward to it!" still shows that you obviously had concern for the issue, yet is far more constructive than "How come monks get free heals?

Obviously if divine favor is good for monk, soul reaping was good for necros!!!"

If anybody has any new, brilliant ideas to fix the problem, they're free to share them. I, however, have not seen any new viable ideas for several days. There is a distinct difference between constructive comments and suggestions and outright complaining and producing ridiculous arguments. It's not my fault you can't tell the difference.

Actually, it is flawless. Really. Except... no, yeah. Pretty flawless.

Just because somebody isn't kissing Anet's rear end does not mean that they are being constructive, silly one. If you read any of my post, you would see that it was in fact very constructive, when taken in reference to the original post. Apparently, so constructive that all the little people jump on me for destroying their arguments for nerfing soul reaping

I must say, when you present an argument so powerful against a person's point and the only response they can give you is flames or broken logic, it's an argument to be proud of!

explodemyheart · Apr 18, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

How the classes attack (and why mesmers are the least appreciated...):

Warriors: Through brute force and strength of muscle you are beaten into a pulp.
Elementalists: The very forces of nature are brought down upon you.
Rangers: Rain death from afar.
Necromancers: Tap the dark forces and eat you from within.
Monks: Summon the power of the gods to smite you down.
Assassins: As fast as they arrive, they are gone. So are you.
Dervishes: Whirling scythes and arcane might quickly dispatch foe upon foe.
Ritualists: Summon the powers of the other side to do their bidding.
Paragons: Spears at range tear you apart.
Mesmers: Sip their latte while you kill yourself for them.

You win life. That made me lol.

I love playing a mesmer though, in both PvP and PvE. I think it'll be great to have more options for PUGs to accept mesmers, though I'm a bit skeptical of how much it will really change anything.

The up side is that heroes and henchies don't complain that I'm not actually doing anything, and will gladly accept me into their parties.